VSP question

[RASWING]

MJ,
I was reading the TM website.
I was wondering are we trying to achieve a higher VSP number close to what the lie angle of the club is or are we shooting for a higher number than the lie angle ? Seems like a higher VSP in relation to the HSP would make a players path more on the proper arc of the swing ?

Just a thought not too under the path and not too over the path with a higher VSP seems that you wouldnt need to aim or swing as far left with anything off the ground.

R/
RA

[dannyc]

Closer to the lie angle of the club with irons.

See this thread, specifically Michael's post, #9
http://www.nygolfworld.com/forum/f2/...1062/#post5438

[RASWING]

I just re-read the post thanks for reminding me.
R/
RA

[Michael Jacobs]

Thanks for posting up the question and thanks for dannyc for putting up a link to an old post.


Some more detail about the VSP - Also known as vertical swing plane angle

The measurement is of the angle angle between the club head and the ground. So if your golf club swung on the ground and never got up in the air during the movement, that would be a ZERO Vertical Swing Plane Angle.

If you took a golf club and moved it like a pendulum on a grandfather clock - up and down in a straight line that would be a 90 degree VErtical Swing Plane angle.

Is this measurement important? Yes, I find it extremely useful. I will caution you about the club fitting industry - they promote that a consistent Vertical Swing Plane Angle is more important an optimal one.

Even in the TM literature, I remember seeing a promotion of a consistent Vertical Swing Plane angle being the most important feature.

Well, I am here to tell you that it is NOT. Optimizing a golfer's VSP to improve their contact with the ball is the most important part of this measurement. Having an obscure measurement and saying 'well, its consistent' is very poor and something I will be taking head on in the industry.

In all honesty folks, the CLub Fitting industry is very - very Poor.

So many people are walking into golfsmith and hitting on a monitor and buying clubs. They have no clue what they are doing and the fittings I am seeing are comical. Every fitting that I do always takes place after I make some very necessary adjustments for improving the golfer's contact.

Club fitting for head design and shafts is pretty much a 100% trial and error process and relates heavily upon what the golfer likes. The 'modern club fit' that costs a fortune and takes 2 hours with all of the bells and whistles is in my opinion the last step of the golfer's development program. And at that point when you reach the last step, it doesn't even need to be that elaborate as the golfer will move through the trail and error process speedily.

Don't waste your money on all this fitting jargon.. just my note for the day

[lefty]

couldnt agree more.

[sharkey35]

Mike,

Can you give us some more thoughts on fitting etc. On the one hand, you say that fitting is poor as people go to a launch monitor and flail away. On the other, you say it doesn't have to be that complicated and should go quickly with trial and error. I'm not being critical, just respect your opinion so much that I would like to hear more.

Like many golfers, I suspect I think too much. One variable I would like to eliminate is equipment. I think my swing is relatively stable and won't change a whole lot going forward. I also think I'm reasonably fit, but how would I know for sure? Like most, I don't want to change for the sake of change (I've had about 2 sets of irons in 20 years), but if I could shave some strokes without breaking the bank, I'd probably do it. Some people talk about how crucial a proper fit is.

Thanks,

Bob

(I'm so missing my annual trip or two out to the Island, so busy I haven't had even a day to get away.)

[Phana24JG]

Mike,


(I'm so missing my annual trip or two out to the Island, so busy I haven't had even a day to get away.)

Hint:

"One Spot has reopened up for the Ultimate Golf School... Repeat - 1 spot is open!!"

Bob, you need to remember that no one ever looked up at the end of the golf season and said "damn, I should have spent more time at the office."

[RASWING]

MJ,

I understand what you’re saying ... As I was trying to get that ideal driver VSP (45 degrees or so ) and I kept hitting the ball off center of the club I was hitting more towards the heel of the driver...
So when I saw Bmanz I felt he had me with the driver try to get a higher VSP and that got me hitting the ball more in the center of the face.
Also what I've noticed is to get the proper HSP and VSP and Club face angle, for me have to what seems as if swing easier /smoother or more under control. I use to have the idea because you can produce higher swing speeds then that what you should be swinging at , but what I’ve learned to get close to my optimal numbers I have to back it down and I hit the ball just as far and high.
It actually gives me more of a feel of club face control I can control the face better at 100 MPH with the driver than say 106. With irons I've noticed I can control the 6 iron better at 87 mph than 93 yes I hit it farther but my path gets worst in relationship to the face with more speed.

I understand so much more lately and the game is showing and even better the scores are.

R/
RA

[Michael Jacobs]

Mike,

Can you give us some more thoughts on fitting etc. On the one hand, you say that fitting is poor as people go to a launch monitor and flail away. On the other, you say it doesn't have to be that complicated and should go quickly with trial and error. I'm not being critical, just respect your opinion so much that I would like to hear more.

Like many golfers, I suspect I think too much. One variable I would like to eliminate is equipment. I think my swing is relatively stable and won't change a whole lot going forward. I also think I'm reasonably fit, but how would I know for sure? Like most, I don't want to change for the sake of change (I've had about 2 sets of irons in 20 years), but if I could shave some strokes without breaking the bank, I'd probably do it. Some people talk about how crucial a proper fit is.

Thanks,

Bob

(I'm so missing my annual trip or two out to the Island, so busy I haven't had even a day to get away.)

Bob,

Great set of questions and I will elaborate to help you out:

Whenever you delve into the topic of 'fitting' a golfer for golf clubs there is always the question of is a swing adjustment needed or an equipment adjustment. From 20,000 hours of teaching, more studying than any golf pro in existence for the past 13 years, research projects with the most famous engineers in the industry, I am going to say that it is technique 9.5 out of every 10 times. SO I would say 95% is technique related mostly just from having very poor concepts of what to do during the swing.

I have the opportunity to sell a lot of equipment:
I have my own equipment line
I own a golf shop
Have a Flightscope and Sam Putt Lab
Have data and research that is extreme

I only recommend a club when or shaft or grip change when it is a appropriate. If I feel that an equipment adjustment will make a difference I will go ahead and put it in the student's hand and let them borrow the club at to promote the equipment's added value to their technique and game.

It is purely a trial and error process, golfer's can hit shot after shot with different golf clubs and we can get data galore: Flightscope - Trackman - Inflight - etc..

The golfer will respond A LOT to what they sense the equipment is doing during the swing. If you give a high speed swinger a ladies flex shaft, they will after a swing or two start to adjust their movement. The shaft's only real variable is how it changes the orientation of the club face for the impact.

The more the shaft deflects during the downswing's final phase the more dynamic loft of the club will change and the more of an opportunity for the club face to 'Dynamically Close'

A golfer will definitely sense those deflections after just one swing and then adjust their hand path to normalize the behavior of the club for the next shot's impact.

Weight is a big issue as well, the weight distribution of the head vs shaft will make a big difference to the golfer. There is no weight or sizing that best suits all golfers, it is completely individualistic. When it comes to weighting it is all 'whatever the golfer prefers' best.

I remember a couple of years ago when you came Bob, I made a shaft change suggestion for your driver. It was necessary but I didn't really push one brand or another I just suggested a few styles and then said pick one you like. That is pretty much what fitting boils down to!!

Any serious golfer should have a lie board laying around to hit off of every once and a while. This will help you check the lie angles of your clubs and is very helpful in verifying your equipment.

To sum it up - go out and try stuff and pick what you like and then go through some very small fitting steps and you will be a happy golfer.


I would try this one day too - MY NEW SHAFT I just finished the design of

It has some very key features that I find important in a shaft! Everyone has to buy one even if you don't want too

[dannyc]

Any serious golfer should have a lie board laying around to hit off of every once and a while. This will help you check the lie angles of your clubs and is very helpful in verifying your equipment.

Michael,

Do you think the lie board is still the best way to determine a player's optimal lie angle? I was under the impression that it has fallen out of favor.